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THE REPUBLIC --Plato

Posted on Feb 14th, 2006 by A Truth Seeker : A Truth Seeker A Truth Seeker
BOOK II

Socrates, what do you see in our search after justice...?


I shall tell you...Justice, we say, is the attribute of an individual, but also of a whole city, is it not?  And is not a city greater than an individual?...

The origin of a city...is, in my opinion, due to the fact that no one of us is sufficient for himself, but each is in need of many things...

Come then...let us in argument construct the city from the beginning.  Apparently it will be the outcome of our need...

The first and greatest of our needs is the provision of food to support existence and life...

The second, the provision of a dwelling place and the third, clothing and so on...

How will our city be able to supply a sufficiency of all those things?

Will it not be by having one man a farmer, another a builder and a third a weaver?  Shall we add a shoemaker and perhaps another provider of bodily needs?...

Then the city of bare neccesity will consist of four or five men...

Should each of these men place his own work at the disposal of all in common?

For example, should our one farmer provide corn for four people and spend fourfold time and labor on the provisions of corn and then share it with the rest;

or should he pay no attention to the others, and provide only a fourth part of the corn for himself in a fourth of the time and spend the other three-fourths of the time in providing a house, clothes and shoes?

Should he not have the trouble of sharing with others, but rather provide with his own hands what he wants for himself?

Adeimantus answered:  The first alternative, Socrates, is perhaps the easier.

Well, it certainly is not strange that it is...I myself was thinking that, in the first place, no two of us are by nature altogether alike.  Our capacities differ.  some fit for one work, some for another...

**********

Because the work of our guardians is the most important of all, it will demand the most exclusive attention and the greatest skill and practice...and will it not need a nature fitted for this profession?

Do you not think, then, that so far as their fitness for guarding is concerned...that [they] must be sharp-sighted, quick of foot to pursue the moment they perceive and strong enough to make captures and overcome opposition when necessary?  And since they are good fighters, they must certainly be brave.

But will either horse or dog or any animal be brave if it is not spirited?

Have you not observed that spirit is unconquerable and irresistable?

Every soul possesed by it will meet any danger fearlessly and unshrinking...

Then...with such natures as these, how are they prevented from behaving savagely towards one another and the other citizens?...

We must have them gentle to their fellows and fierce to their enemies.

If we cannot effect that, they will prevent the enemy from destroying the city by doing it first themselves...

[The guardian] must [also] be by nature philosophical and fond of learning...

**********



I have a multitude I would like to discuss regarding the above passage, but thought it best to let it stand alone for a moment...but don't let my pause in thought stop you...









Access_public Access: Public 6 Comments Print views (404)  
1 day later
Chris said

A cyber-symposium hosted by a spirited tiger, I see….taking us back to the roots of democracy for a consideration of things going on in our own breakneak time and place?

Imagine if the media spoke with Plato’s insistent sincerity?  What ever would we do?

Please Tyger, share with us your thoughts.

A Truth Seeker : A Truth Seeker
1 day later
A Truth Seeker said

Well, first…

It was by complete “chance” that I happened across this passage…

I found myself at the library by the unexpected request of my Angel to go there versus the park…and with no particular book in mind to grab while she did her ‘thing’ at the library…I happened to find Plato’s book in my hand, already book-marked (with those ribbon things that some of the older books have attached to them) to Book II…

I have not previously encountered any of his work, just quotes here and there…”how screwy is that?”  I wonder in retrospect after encountering what I did…

Reading the passages that I did, I wonder how we could have gone so terribly wrong…how can this be so, when we have not only the wisdom, but also the folly, of our collective Past to look back on?

Why is man –the human being, so intent on willful ignorance?

I simply can not get my brain nor my heart around it…willful ignorance???  How can someone actually choose this? 

All the ‘reasons’ in the world mean nothing to me when struggling with this question…we all have suffered tragedy in one shade or another, but that is never an excuse to remain in the dark once the light has been provided…period.

Why are people so quick and so willing to turn their personal power over to others and not reclaim it when the power is being abused and used for pain and destruction?

Yes, yes…FEAR.  But again, that reason is too often used as an excuse…and I find willful ignorance to be inexcusable.  And I believe this is one Truth that I will never move out of.

When will we stop allowing and perpetuating the destruction and devastation that occurs from willful ignorance because there is a ‘reason’ for it?  Knowing the reason simply allows us to act in compassion and right judgment (judgment, not condemnation).

*Sigh* …these were not my original thoughts that were floating around when I first posted this…but here they are, coming to the forefront of my mind in place of the innitial thoughts…

One of the things that caught my attention with the first passage I quoted was that I saw it as the essence of the intent of those who are striving to build sustainable communities…or perhaps not “essence”, but at least the same foundational principles.

But what really jumped out at me was the reference to “guardians”…

Serenity : Beginner's Mind
2 days later
Serenity said

Willful ignorance…

I can feel your passion and commitment while reading your post, Michelle, and I am reminded of a previous exchange that we have had concerning the eight-fold path, and how many individuals seem to ommit “right action” in favor of right mindedness, right speech, etc. 

(Hmmm, I just had an odd image of Buddha suggesting to a group of students that they are ‘talking the talk, but failing to walk the walk’. Not sure why Buddha takes on a very Tony Robbins-esque quality for me this morning…) 

Anywho, back on point… I believe that we often choose willful ignorance not only out of fear, but out of familiarity. The Allegory of the Cave rings clear and true in my mind as I contemplate this reflection, as well as your original post.

We are all afraid of the light. Afraid of what it might be. Some of us are afraid we don’t deserve it, others are afraid that we do. Either way we sometimes choose to turn away from the light because change is scary, and we prefer the comfort of familiarity. Even unfulfilling familiarity brings wih it a sense of comfort. Hell, harmful familiarity can sometimes feel more comfortable than the prospect of change!

This thought feels foreign to you… I sense that it even feels offensive to you. The idea that someone may turn away from the Truth, for any reason. This is why you are here, Michelle.

To lead by example.

Marianne Williams wrote in Return to Love: …as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

Continue to shine your beacon of Truth and Light for all of us to see. Shine it with both passion and compassion so that others may gain the courage to join you outside the cave!

~Love & Light and a huge virtual hug for {{{{{you}}}}} 

Korenna

A Truth Seeker : A Truth Seeker
2 days later
A Truth Seeker said

**Thank you**, Korrena, for the reminder…

I know of what you speak for I, too, have found myself in the very same place at times…I like to thing that those moments are now behind me, but I shall have to contemplate and see if perhaps I have again found myself in a state of willful ignorance.  Gonna have to bring the scope of vision in a little closer to home  ;-)

Perhaps the image of Buddha is in direct relation to what I have been thinking and speaking of recently…

‘talking the talk, but failing to walk the walk’

That, and ”Balance in all things“…these two statements echo in my mind in tandem to one another when I observe much of what is (or is not) going on…

So when I first contemplated what you reminded me of, after my initial “yeah, but so what!” thought *blushing*, I let that one pass and the next to follow in its place was “ok, so it is time to re-up on the compassion”…but right on the heels of that was “but what about others who suffer as a result of such willful ignorance?”…

So here I am, seeking my own balance in this…Free Will is nothing I will ever try to infringe upon, even with the ‘best’ of intentions; so if one chooses to remain in such a state, so be it. 

HOWEVER, when their choice begins to infringe upon another’s right to peace and safety, it then becomes a serious problem to me.

Which do I hold compassion for?  Both.  But then beyond that…it then becomes a question of who would elicit an act of compassion?  In my heart and mind, both individuals would evoke two different forms of compassion from me…the one whose boundaries are being violated would be my ‘highest’ priority, the other secondary.

Some would say an active defensive position is the opposite of peace, for it often involves an ‘attack’.  I would have to disagree to the point that sometimes another’s actions will not afford anything less than the Sword being drawn in order to preserve the sanctity of the defenseless –to show the ‘defenseless’ how to protect themselves with Respect and Love.  Love does not always take on a warm, glowy, fuzzy form…and this goes back to a previous blog post I made.

And this leads up to the Guardians…for this is a term I have been using before ever coming across The Republic.

I dare say that I am seeking the balance not only for myself, but to also share it, debate it, and feel it out with others who feel the same call to stand firm and protect when necessary while we go through these Times of transition and change. 

Not all are called to such a duty, for to tread such lines is dangerous if the art of Balance has not been perfected. 

The Wind can blow and cause one not firmly balanced between the polarities to plunge to devastating depths.

The Fire is intoxicating and one could be mesmerized by its power, only to be devoured by its consuming power from the inside out –leaving much devastation and destruction in its wake if the strength of the vessel has not been worked out and tested.

It is the ones such as yourself, dear Sister, who keep us from becoming lost in the depths and the heights we travel and tread. 

Beacons, of Light and Anchors in the Sea, you are to us…reminding us why we do what we do –and how to do it right.

NAMASTE~

2 days later
Chris said

I dare say that I am seeking the balance not only for myself, but to also share it, debate it, and feel it out with others who feel the same call to stand firm and protect when necessary while we go through these Times of transition and change.

You speak my heart here, Michelle.  

Protection.  Guarding.  Holding the Sword with Vigilant Awareness.  Yes.

Love must protect itself, after all.  And the world as we see it unravelling before us is under predation by countless creeps of all shapes, sizes, and dimensions. 

I have admittedly been disoriented in my own research into how far down the rabbit hole really goes these past 6 months or so, only to come out the other end fiercely recognizing that just as I must not avoid the negativity, so must I not become entranced by its presence or the drama it is currently playing out in current events.  There is, I sense, a sacred balance to discover in which I can navigate in a maximum of freedom in the world for the sake of collaborating with others, like yourself, to transform this time and place from the inside out, through a collaboration of our fierce presence to Stand and Be here, despite what Is and what Is Not.

This is what we are here for, is it not?  It is for me.

And for me, the truly grating question of late has been:  How am I to act in the face of what appears to me to be an onslaught of willful ignorance – yes – bearing willful destruction, murder, genocide, and ecoside.  How to face that willfulness?  How to understand it’s conscious and negative intention beyond the veil of its own ignorance?  (I do appreciate that ignorance is its basis – but beyond that, how to face it down in its perverse displays of intentional violence?)

This for me has led to an enquiry into the nature of nihilism, or non-being – a negative path, if you will, with a suction of its own that draws people into itself and reinforces its own vibration.  It would be a kind of negative image of the evolutionary ladder from birth to Conscious Liberation.  It would instead lead from birth to varying degrees of Willed Self-Negation and Non-Being. 

This is where the fringe comes in, for me – and why I feel I must expose myself to it, disorienting as it can often be.  But having learned to recognize what it means to become entranced by its gaze – the gaze of the Abyss that looks back when we look at it too long – I can stand free and know What Is:  positive AND negative, and act in proportion to my heart and light while here on Earth, with you.

Phew…  Thanks for the chance to voice that.  Sometimes it all just comes flying out – phoenix-like and full of fury.

Love, Chris

3 days later
Chris said

Korenna wrote:

Marianne Williams wrote in Return to Love: …as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

I appreciate Marianne’s simple articulation of this profoundly real truth.  This would make a wonderful topic for a long dialogue, I think.  I can already think of deep examples of how I have been given such permission by others – including here, online. 

One thing that excites me so about this idea is that perhaps, as things continue to heat up in the world under the duress and ravages of BushCo, those of us doing this work of letting our own light shine need not be too concerned about explaining ourselves to others.  Could it be that in simply boldly demonstrating this light we each are building in ourselves and among each other, that we have completed the communication?

A woman with a samurai sword slicing a watermelon in half to feed her family need not explain the force or strength with which the blade splits the fruit.

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